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PISA: What It Measures, Why It Matters

Webinar:


The Alliance for Excellent Education
Invites You to Attend a Webinar

PISA: What It Measures, Why It Matters

Panelists
Jessica Cardichon, EdD, Director of Federal Advocacy,
Alliance for Excellent Education
Robert Rothman, Senior Fellow,
Alliance for Excellent Education
Bob Wise, President, Alliance for Excellent Education

What can the United States learn from the highest-performing nations in the world? On December 3, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) will release the results from the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), an assessment of reading literacy, mathematics, and science given in 2012 to fifteen-year-olds in sixty-five nations. While most of the focus on the release of the results will likely be on the international rankings, PISA provides a great deal of information on student learning and teaching and the policies and practices of high-performing countries.

In this webinar, panelists will explore the test and consider what to look for when the results are released. Bob Wise and Robert Rothman will discuss what the test measures and why it is important for the United States, and Jessica Cardichon will moderate the discussion. Panelists will also address questions submitted by webinar viewers from across the country.

Register and submit questions for the webinar using the form below.

Please direct questions concerning the webinar to alliance@all4ed.org. If you are unable to view the webinar live, an archived version will be available at http://all4ed.org/webinars within one to two business days after the event airs.

Support for this webinar is provided in part by the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation.

The Alliance for Excellent Education is a Washington, DC–based national policy and advocacy organization dedicated to ensuring that all students, particularly those traditionally underserved, graduate from high school ready for success in college, work, and citizenship. https://all4ed.org

Save These Dates:
PISA Day streamed live: December 3, 2013
Digital Learning Day: February 5, 2014

>>> Good afternoon. My name is Jessica cardichon. I’ll be your host today. We are glad that you have joined us for this next hour as we discuss an important event the release of the 2012 program for student assessment is a test that is administered every three years. You have probably seen the headlines that US. students perform below average in mathematics. This year, on December 3rd, when the 2012 results are released, we will hold a day long severs of events to learn what we can learn from PISA and how do high performing countries use results to improve learning. It will include an official a announcement by arty Duncan and the secretary general of the OECD and development on the international result for US. education policy. Pisa day will also include the presentation on in depth findings of the results in how the united states performed. Register at pisaday.org. Today we will discuss what it is, what it measures and why the information it provides is important for policy-makers in the united states. I’m joined by two of my colleagues bob wise the alliance’s president and former governor of west Virginia and bob Rothman a senior fellow. They will present a report about what it reveals about deeper learning. And how to communicate effectively. We look forward to your participation during this webcast. We will go to these questions from time to time to answer your questions throughout the webinar. Also join the conversation on twitter using the # all4ed. Let’s hear about what PISA was intended to accomplish. >>
thank you and let’s turn to our discussion. What specifically does PISA measure and how is this different from more commonly used standardized tests in the united states?
BR >> PISA is intended to measure not just what students have learned, but how they can use what they have learned in solving real world problems. Other tests like most standardized tests in the united states and other tests are measures of the curriculum and what students have learned. Whether they can use what they will learned in solving problems is important in their ability to be prepared for college and careers and these are the kinds of deeper learning abilities that employers say they want students to develop and colleges say students need in order to be successful in higher education.
BW>> I think bob states it well. Pisa is different than so many tests. So many tests now simply measure what you know. Pisa measures not only what you know, but how you can apply it to solve problems. And that is where the game is now in today’s 21st century economy. In whatever the employment is, what we hear increasingly from employers is that in the workforce it is not simply knowing something. It is being able to apply that knowledge and communicate with others and take three different facts and draw a conclusion and engage in self reflection. But that is what PISA measures. And since 2000 it has become more and more sophisticated in doing that. It measures not just the rankings and we’ll talk more about that. It is important to recognize all of the data that goes behind these rankings. That is the importance of PISA day. The real initiative needs to be looking behind the data to see what it is that the data shows us and the nice thing about PISA is that it is data rich that it has extensive amounts of data behind each of the points that it is trying to make. And to give you an example every year education at a glance is published. This is one volume of it. For that one year with a lot of the data that comes from PISA plus PISA itself will have US. reports about the us data and the appliance alliance itself will show how to in interpret the US. performance. You have seen the results of two other tests. The trends and pearls international reading and literacy study. Those provided information about where the united states stood relative to other countries but those are measures of earlier in the careers. Pisa measures 15 year old’s performance. These are students who are getting close to the end of their school career and about to enter college in the workplace and to understand their performance it is important to have a measure as well. Pisa is looking at the older students who are about the end of their secondary school career.
JC: Both of you mentioned the importance to solve complex problems and communicate effectively. What is the role in providing opportunities for student to acquire these types of skills?
>> the role of PISA to demonstrate these skills, it brings out how well students are able to do this. It is about taking knowledge and applying it to a real world problem as opposed to a multiple choice measuring what you know. That is the first solid statement about PISA. It s important to the student, equally important to the teacher, to the principal and to the policy-maker. It provides a back drop into rich data into how students did and why they did. It is not just about measuring a student’s ability, it is about looking at the practices and while PISA focuses on three basic areas, it also does surveys at the same time. Family surveys and teacher surveys, it comes as a rich and robust package that we can use whether we are an educator or policy-maker that we can use to identify those practices and get the best learning outcomes for students.
BR: >> I want to point out that most state tests that are in place now, don’t measure these deeper learning competencies. A study by the rand corporation that looked at 17 state tests that are representative of most of the states and found that only a tiny percentage in English language arts because of writing but still the vast majority of test questions in a low level of knowledge and arts and skills. Students can do well on these low level skills to see how they do on these higher level desired by colleges and workplaces.
JC >> and bob you mentioned earlier while much of the focus on PISA day will be on the US. rankings it should be on the fact that it should be on learning and teaching beyond the rankings?
>> that is important. Pisa was started to be administered in the year 2000. The story every time is what were the rankings. My guess is, the rankings for the US. will not change, but will change and what we do benefit from is the data behind the rankings, the studies that go on behind the rankings. What he will present on the day is analysis is how the US. performs and in regards to mathematics which is stressed this year and how the areas in the US. performed and what are the implications for policy-makers. Pisa provides rich information that says, here is what high performing nations are doing to raise literacy levels and numeracy to raise science learning outcomes and here are teaching practices that are successful and educational practices and looking at economic breakdowns and what is the economic status of students and what is the correlation between them?
BW >> PISA is way more than the rankings. The reason I encourage everyone to participate. Go to the pisaday.org website and look the materials there is the rankings for us will be the blip. The real story is behind them. I look at it this way. You can find out what the rankings for a basketball team are at the end of the season. But what is really important is seeing the video and watching the team and how do you apply that to your team? The united states has provided lessons to many countries. We can learn how those lessons have been applied and we can look to see how nation’s practices can be applied here. I want to stress at the end of the day, this is a American US. education system, but what is important is that we take the lessons and given the unique American application and make sure our students have the faster learning outcomes that other nations do.
BR >> as bob mentioned earlier, the survey that comes with PISA, you can look at these surveys now what the questions were on the PISA website and they will provide a great deal of information about the socioeconomic status of students, the types of school structures and the way schools are governed and managed but also this time there is an extensive questionnaire for students and the types of practices that go on in mathematics which is the special focus this year of PISA. They are asked to apply their knowledge to real problems as opposed to just plugging in numbers and formula.
JC >> before we talk about what policy-makers can learn. Stephen in Michigan asks how are student selected to take PISA in the united states?
BR >> PISA is a random sample. Each country selects a sample of students from different schools throughout the country. Rural, urban, ub public, private and charter schools. They use standard statistical techniques to make sure that the sample represents the country as a whole. In the united states it is somewhere around 5,000 students who are tested. This year, three states elected to participate in PISA so they had a separate sample within their state. So they can get state results and provide those results on the international scale. Other countries have the same procedure of randomly sampling students across the population.
>> it is random in one regard but it is weighted in terms of levels is that correct?
>> that is correct. The way that PISA is administered, it is called a matrix sample. So the student doesn’t take the same test. They take a piece of a large test that way they can combine the information and get information from the nation on a very broad set of outcomes.
>> I want to stress one other point as well that PISA is administers roughly 5,000 students across the country and demographically weighted so it represents a proportion of low income students to the country. It is not ethnically weighted but for the first time in this country, we are going to do something that every other nation has been doing for years. At least three states will take the PISA within themselves. Massachusetts, Connecticut and Florida will have their own PISA ratings and be able to compare themselves against the world. Every other federated nation, at the national level and state level, province level they have had to stay here for a long time. These three states, I want to commend the education leaders, these three states, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Florida have opted to take PISA themselves. One other note, for the first time in this country, a number of schools administered PISA during this last year. Under the leadership of America achieve. One of the partner organizations with the alliance and PISA day over 100 schools administered a type of PISA exam within their school to not only learn how they were doing in relation to the world but to look at the results and how that would shape educational practices.
>> and this program the test for schools is now open to any high school in the united states.
>> I believe they can sign up for this next administration of it.
JC >> so 100 have participated in the pilot and now it is open. What do these schools home to gain from it?
>> what they gained already is rich data. They took a test that wasn’t their state test. It wasn’t whatever testing system they have been used for years in the school. They took a test that measured how they’re students were doing on a test that is benchmarked internationally and reflects what students need to know coming out of high school. But the deeper learning skills and problem solving and then the schools review this data and look at how they can change their teaching practices and it gives them a chance now to look at the PISA results and surveys and studies and once again improve their practice and efforts to raise educational it comes. Some of the schools will release the results and some have kept them internal. For a school to administer this was a bit of a risk. If you know you are not going to do well on the initial one, some schools have chosen to release it and say okay, now we have a better picture of how to improve the outcomes.
BR >> the ones that released the data found surprising results. There was several high schools in Fairfax county, Virginia outside of Washington, a traditionally high performing school district found they did well overall, but there were areas where they found room for improvement. They had found that their students were doing well in basic comprehension and reading for example, but weren’t able to in interpret what they had read and PISA found this out for them. Also, in other school that released it’s result was north star academy in Newark, new jersey. A low income school, students of color performed well above average. It chose that provided some information about how they were actually performing that they couldn’t provide without the benchmark.
JC >> another reason why people look to PISA is because of the relationship between educational performance and the economy. What can you tell us about that?
BW >> PISA has a lot to tell us. I want to get into the challenges that is often raised against PISA. It tells us and a recent study done by Stanford professor along with the OECD showed that there is a correlation between your performance on PISA and what your gross domestic product was likely to be and showed that in three scenarios that if you could increase your PISA performance by 20 points in 20 years, your gross domestic product would increase $40 million — billion, I’m sorry trillion. So if you increase your PISA performance by 20 points over 20 years you would increase your gross domestic product by $40 trillion. Remembering that the US. economy right now is somewhere around $15 trillion. You get that sense of scale. So there is a direct connection between economic performance and educational performance. This is an information based economy that is based on skills. Then, the more the higher results you get on PISA, the higher the learning outcomes the more likely you are to have an improving economy. I want to take on a specific challenge that is sometimes raised. There is no correlation between PISA performance and economic performance. And some say look the united states is still one of the strongest economies in the world. The united states has been sputtering along better than most as yet it’s PISA performance is okay at best. It is not what it should be. One reason is because we have three million jobs that are open but we don’t have people with appropriate skill levels and many of these measured by PISA to fill them. There is a human capitol lag that is beginning to make sense. Many of those are retiring and moving out of the economy and yet the younger generation coming in does not have the same skill levels. Does not have the same skill level as their parents and grandparents. What I’m afraid you are going to see soon is a crossing of lines. As our human capital begin to decline so will our economic performance. That is the important of PISA. To those who say there is no correlation you are making assumptions based on an earlier economy. One in which people did not need to have core contact knowledge but the deeper learning skills of being able to work in teams to communicate, collaborate and engage in problem solving. The old economy said you didn’t need this. As long as you could work the assembly line you could work at a good paying job. Today the wages are dropping. Jobs are getting harder to find because they require harder skill levels and our economy which ought to be growing on a regular basis is sputtering along. But sputtering and likely to continue sputtering and I’ll be interested to see in years to come as some nations as that human capitol begins to come into the workforce whether those economies will reflect that and I think they will.
JC >> actually since you talked about the workforce. The OECD office released a report which analyzed the level and distribution of skills of different adult populations. What can you tell us about the major findings of this report and how it relates to PISA?
BR >> as bob mentioned, the survey found adults age 16 to 64 and their literacy, numeracy and their ability to solve problems to use technology to self basic problems and one finding that was significant for the united states was that in contrast to most other countries, the older population in the united states performed about the same level as the younger population. In other countries, younger adults did better than their older peers. That suggested that the united states is reaching a peak and education levels and I think we will be paying for it in the coming years.
>> another fact the report released by the OECD is that the united states has the most direct connection between wage levels and education levels. And the differential is the most significant. In other words, the higher your skill level the much higher you are to be paid than other countries. A high school graduate for instance in the united states versus a four year college graduate or graduate level degree, there is a sharp difference in, increase in how much that college graduate has. Once again, this is an information age economy and what the data shows in the united states, the only real currency, is education. And education levels. The data is also important because it does know glaringly that the youngest generation entering the workforce is going to be less prepared than it’s predecessors. We are in real trouble if you are depending on me and my generation to take care of the economy. We are ready to slip off the stage. We recognize that this generation that is in our secondary schools now, this generation that is out of secondary school but needs job training we have to focus on them to make the economic capital.
JC >> this might be a good time to take a question from our audience. This one is from Amanda from somewhere in the united states. Is it true that countries like china cannot be compared to US. results since the US. population was more representative?
BR >> I’m assured by the OECD that every country in order to have their results released has to follow the same procedures as the united states does and they don’t — the population is representative from every country. And in countries like china where the entire country does not participate but shanghai and Hong Kong participated. Those countries are diverse and include a large number of low income students as well. And they all participated in PISA.
BW >> this is a very important question and comes up a good deal. I personally asked this question just last week. When you look at shanghai china which was not in the PISA in 2006. 2009 comes in as the highest performer by far. It is like the player who walked on the court without a scholarship and suddenly ends up LeBron James. That suspicious arises. I was assured by the OECD that yes, it is the nation or unit that is participating that chooses the sample but then that sample is checkeded. The results from china, and the results from countries other nations such as Singapore and south Korea these are samplings of the area. Talking about china as a whole, it is a diverse country. That is right. You are not going to see these kinds of results. It simimportant to note that shanghai which is more than 20 million people, it is diverse and the OECD demographic sampling represents that.
>> great.
>> I have one more thing with the study that came out a year or so ago. The US. sample PISA looked at a different measure of socioeconomic status specifically books in the home and found that PISA in the united states might have over sampled low income students because of looking at that measure and I’ve seen over research that shows that was not the case. And the sampling was equivalent in all countries including the united states.
JC >> good information to know. Cheryl from California asks how closely do the smarter balance numbers reflect PARCC and PIRLS?
>> smarter balance assessment consortium and careers are two states that are developing new assessments aligned to the common core state standards in English language arts and math. They are expected to be administered in the 2014, 2015 school year for the first time. They are not complete yet. But they have been releasing their sample items and they do include a number of items that resemble PISA in that they asked students to apply their knowledge and solve authentic problems. There was a study done by researchers by ucla at the university of colorado that found that the designs of smarter balance and park did much better than current state tests in tapping higher levels of ability of these people learns competencies. The new common core state standards reflect well what it is PISA seeks to measure. Officials state that, the new state standards that they are a better measure. It will be interesting to see as we evolve and PISA is administers every three years and as a common core in the states that have adopted it. That may not be the common core, how deep the scores show progress. But I think it is important to note. The common core state standards are benchmarked to that which students are expected to snow under PISA. So, as more exams are administered over the year to come we have a good indication and you can be confident that the PISA results are reflecting what it is that students need on the common core and your student that is in a school where the common core is being implements that your student is moving higher toward the standard that all students need to reach.
>> it is fair that common core does reflect this international benchmark. They reviewed the standard after they were written to ensure that they were correct and he signed off on them and said many time that is they reflect international standard.
>> we received a question from someone in the audience who asked whether the standards were poised to address the issues identified from PISA. Do you want to add anything to that.
>> we answered two questions with one answer that is great.
BW >> that is deeper learning. That is what PISA seeks to measure. Whether you can apply content knowledge and come to a conclusion.
JC >> we answered both questioned. In looking at this at the federal, state and local level what lessons can we learn. How should we use that information to in form policy at these different levels?
BW >> I’ll start with one and then there are a lot of policy areas. The one that is — I’ll start with the one that is on people’s minds a lot. Obviously in the next several months every state policy-maker is going to have to make a go, no go decision as his or her state sets the common core. Are they going to go with the run of the mill assessment or deeper richer assessments that reflect what a student needs to know. Pisa is one of those assessments that reflects what a student needs to know. To the extent that you develop and choose to have administered you are going to be in a better situation. The other areas that are critical for policy-makers as they make decisions that will affect us for the next 20 years will be about teaching practices and curriculum and other areas that PISA measures. And not only the assessment but the data collected by the OECD and the furtherance of the assessment and other studies can be a great guide. That is the performance to me. Let’s make sure we understand what is at stake. School board members local and state governors a number of others are going to have to make basic decisions as they seek to make the standards. How to improve student learning outcomes and the effective use of technology and PISA and the data that is collected and through the OECD can provide that information.
>> I want to point out this other document. Which looked in depth with case studies of some of the highest performing nations with PISA countries that were at the top of the international ranks and those that moved up fast like Poland and the united kingdom. By looking in depth, they were able to find out some patterns across these countries that showed practices that seemed to be associated with high performance. And these were compiled in a book called surpassing shanghai. And they found for example, that these countries have well developed instructional systems that combine in instruction and make sure that all are aligned and support one another. The idea isn’t that we can take the practices from other countries and import them to the united states. But taking the ideas that are generated by looking in depth, we can adapt what seem to be successful to the united states concept.
JC >> we are actually getting some tweets being sent from other countries across the world. We are getting great questions in. Before we turn to audience questions I want to talk about PISA day. The alliance with the department of education and OECD are hosting the first effort PISA day on December 3rd. What can they expect to see on that day?
BW >> most will be watching live online. Starting at 10:00 eastern standard time in the united states starting at 10:00 am to see the secretary general of the OECD and the secretary general of the US. department of the education announce the results. And there will be a panel of students and then we go beginning at noon we will go into three hours of extensive analysis of what the results mean and what they mean for implementation of the common core and what they mean in the united states, and what the data shows as mar as how the united states is doing vetting deeper and learning competencies for our students and also analysis of the US. results in literacy, science and the one that was stressed which was math. There will be discussion which was what does the PISA day show for other practices such as teaching effectiveness. I’m excited because we’ll have a teaching component in there as well. About what the data shows and the importance for teaching effectiveness. We will have panels so it is going to be an extensive review of what PISA means. You can sign up at pisaday.org. And we encourage you to share that with your friends. The website will continue beyond PISA day. Right now, we are starting to populate with some data about PISA and relevant information and we will be adding to it some other materials including videos of experts from the united states and around the world about PISA what it means and what we can learn from it.
>> Jessica, I learn at PISA day sort of like if you are a football fan like new year’s day. You start with the stars themselves. The secretary general and secretary Duncan announcing what the results are. And for the united states you swing into andreas schleicher announcing the data and what it means for the united states. And then you have further commentary and analysis on what it means for literacy and science and also what it means for teachers and what it means for deeper learning competency. It is a full day. Of course as mentioned, you can see it on the pisaday.org website. But I think it simimportant to stress, January, February, march, more and more data and information is going to be added to the pisaday.org website by the ten partners to help inform all of us as these important decisions are made and looking at the lessons of high performing nations in particular to learn outcomes.
JC >> you mentioned nine or ten other organizations. Considering there are so many organizations why do you think it was important for them to be part of this.
BW >> It was important that so many of them be part of this. It is important for so many of them to be part of this. We are all trying to work hard to improve it. National board of professional teaching standards. Evaluating the highest performance standards and the major testing services. The national center for education and the economy which has done so much to look at the lessons that we are learning. Which has been involved in at ministering the OECD test. Achieve which has been one of the nation’s leaders in bringing together business and others business and government to develop a set of standards on what is necessary. Workplace readiness and what is critical to the common core. I have several other organizations that need to be mentioned in here. These partners which is spends the great deal of effort in time evaluating Asian nations and also administers a series of schools that we learn about in PISA. So that is why, of course the one that is administering where ultimately tests get administered and the standards of the common core, the state superintendent and a large number of organization. As I say, there are ten formal partners and a number of other organizations that are interested in participating as well.
JC >> we’ll take some more questions from the audience. How might a PISA test fit into the already crowded stressful and testing landscape. I know bob, you talked earlier about the testing not accepting the skills. That might answer a little bit of this question.
BR >> I’ll mention, the PISA test for schools. They did this in addition to all of the other testing that they are doing, but found it important to do both because the information was extremely valuable to them and also, because the way it was administered, it didn’t create that much of a burden for them as a test. It was only got school level results. There were no results during the individual students. They did it with 75 students in a high school. There were no stakes on the test so it was relatively stress free and didn’t seem to be too much of a burden. For the amount of information that they got for this small burden they thought that was extremely valuable.
>> one thing I would encourage people to do is see the kind of items that are on a PISA exam. I know you can go to the PISA website and see sample questions.
BR >> you can actually take the test and get the score. >> we answered a question from California. Regarding will PISA put out released or sample items. About having to copyright permission. >> they are on the website.
JC >> we had a question from Elsa from Oklahoma. In reference when you discussed curriculum under PISA. Did you mean that the US. would be adopting curriculum?
BW >> no. The OECD does not adopt curriculum. That is a local and state effort. What the PISA data does is suggest the kinds of curriculum that might be applicable in your situation. It is a big cultural gap and each performs well. What are the lessons that we can learn? What is there in common and what are some of the unique practices that might think applied in the united states? As finished practice PISA doesn’t prescribe or dictate the curriculum. How are children learning that you may want to corporate.
JC >> we have a couple of questions about data. Sara from Washington, d.c. asks are there data over time from test administration and what does it show from previous exams?
>> well, the PISA is designed to be on a common scale so that you can see trends over time. When it was first administered. When they come out in December. You can see performance trends over time. More countries are added each year. Not all countries have data since 2,000. But trends are available and they will be part of the record when it comes out.
>> donna from Illinois asks has the US. analyzed districts.
>> the way PISA has been administered in the past in the united states that has not been possible. The sampling of 5,000 students with the exception of California has made it impossible to do that fine granular analysis. For the very first time three states Florida, Massachusetts, Connecticut have chosen to administer PISA within their state. We’ll have the national data and data for each of those states about what the PISA outcomes are and what the suggestions are for practice and improvement in those states.
JC >> Stephanie from Arizona wants to know how can the data from the 2012 PISA provide the 2015 assessment.
>> well, I think we have talked about how PISA does measure critical thinking and problem solving. And that the I don’t know, if she means the common core assessments that are coming on in 2015. Because as I mentioned, those will also be a better measure of those abilities and the current state tests as well.
>> the PISA exam provides a good model for how to measure competencies. And of course problem solving. The part of the consortia are looking at them as they develop theirs. These will be richer and more PISA like. They can help form the kind of assessments that are given in every day courses. So there are lots of lessons that can be learned. But PISA in terms of an international test I would say they are the leader in measuring the competency. But in problem solving what you do with that knowledge.
JC >> again, back to the curriculum. Pat in new York wants to know if there are other countries that have a common curriculum and if they have a correlation of higher test scores.
BW>> let me define some terms here. The united states has common core standards and many nations do as well. Finland, for instance, has a set of common standards. In the united states the common core standards were determined by the state and adopted as a common set of standards that the states wants to have and adopted by the states and being implemented by the states. They say that is what a student is able to do. Curriculum is being developed in response by each of the states and will vary strongly state to state. Different nations have different practices. Finland has a loose set of national standards but then gives every school and everyone of its districts the almost complete autonomy on how they get there. And yet you may have another nation that has a national curriculum. You need to look at PISA for the data that will assist you. Understanding that at the end of the process it will be a unique American system with states developing a curriculum in response to the lessons that they learn and that they will be doing it to meet the newer expectations of the common core set of standards but there is no dictate coming from the federal government.
BR >> I want to point out one thing though. After the first administration of PISA Germany which has been anticipating that they would do very well, they turned out to do much less well than they expected and headlines were all over the German newspapers. And they were embarrassed by this and changed their system as a result. The country had been very much state run with each state having its own set of standards and curriculum and these varied widely. But after these embarrassing results they decided they needed common standards and they developed them.
>> the type of system that gets the highest learning outcomes and the left in terms of post second regression. States with the standards over arching expectations but there is much autonomy.
JC >> we have time for one more question. Christine from Illinois asked how might PISA result in teacher training? How can this help us as we think of teacher preparation and support?
>> Well, it will be interesting to see the results of the student questionnaires that I mentioned earlier that looked at classroom practices to see the extent to which students have the opportunity to engage in problems that ask them to apply their knowledge to real world problems and see whether that does in fact — is that associated with higher performance. If that is the case, then I think that has strong implications for the way that teachers are prepared so that they have opportunities to structure classroom activities that enable students to do those things routinely and they are given opportunity to in the classroom to do that.
>> the PISA exam, what the result of PISA show, what the data behind PISA will show are examples of successful teaching practice. This can be used to the teacher to the principal to the school of teacher education. I think it is important to note that the data looks at successful teaching practices as well. So this should be another source of information that can benefit teaching at every level.
JC >> we could continue on this all day, but unfortunately our time on the set sup. I want to thank bob wise and bob Rothman for this thought provoking discussion. Take the time to click on the link below to provide your feedback on this topic. You can watch archived video from it. Tune in on December 3rd. Thank you very much for joining us today. #

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